Ragnaros by Egregorious

The problem with beginning with too short a range is that you're exacerbating the issue of his weakness to rotations, he's essentially got a timer until he can actually be useful in that lane, and it's too easy to stop him before he can do anything, especially if he's not going to be tanky. In saying that however, a "graduating range" based hero concept is one I had considered for Neptulon, and maybe still, but it would require a bigger rework to Rag to make it work I think.

My argument for his tankiness is that he's not actually able to use it as well as any mobile character, every single skillshot in the game will be gauranteed to hit him, stuns included, and attack speed affects the damage he takes much more since stutter stepping won't be a factor, so giving him Azmodan's health pool will not make him as tanky as Azmodan, because Azmodan can avoid things.

I still get the feeling you and I are not thinking in the same ball park in terms of ability range. My thinking is that while sitting inside the gate, he would be just within range of the enemies gate at lvl 1. I don't think he needs the ability to "fight" heroes 1 on 1, the problem with Robo Gazlowe is that he's not able to even deal damage to heroes because that requires them to be within range of his turrets or his extremely obvious 4 second charging aoe effects. Ragnaros however can throw any number of aoe effects into a teamfight from a somewhat safe position, I firmly believe this is enough to contribute to teamfights in a meaningful way.

Yes, I agree theres likely too much complexity in some of these extra trait things, some of them have a good reason, some of them purely because I just thought it would be fun, and most are because I wanted to throw out as many ideas as possible;
-Autoattacks targeting an area was just because I wanted to throw in that idea, and I doubt it would have worked with an assassin. In a way it does make sense, since it gives him some added damage and things to do when abilities are on cooldown, and a long range standard auto attack is both boring, unbalanced and basically is Hammer.
-The "rising" effect on lava wave is to keep it from being too powerful while supporting the whole "obviousness" thing. I needed a way to show Rags position, so an effect which started at him and went across the map seemed good, but the issue is that with the range, an effect that dealt flat burst damage would be too strong, so the flat damage should only affect the area targeted, making it more difficult skillshot.
-The "if majordomo is killed" effect is purely for fun, I wanted a "TOO SOON, EXECUTUS" mechanic, plus it gave him some extra vulnerability which I had thought he needed.
-The extra regen from Domo is to make up for Rags inability to visit the fountain, I didn't think it would be so powerful since Rag does not want Domo to be near him, Domo is supposed to be safely positioned behind the tower on the other side of the map for when Rag needs to leave.

-That's because there isn't. I just rewrote what you had because it was something I was tossing off the top of my head, maybe changed it around a bit so that there was a bit more self-defense built into the non-moving molten man. The changes were in streamlining the split between Executus and Ragnaros so there's less micro involved. And making the trait be that Ragnaros appears with only the smallest of ranges, barely better than melee, and has to grow that over time by using his skills. A Ragnaros with much shorter range and more greater mobility that, I think, is still pretty stationary.

The first change means that enemies can concentrate on Ragnaros as Executus is just an annoyance that shows where Ragnaros could be. And with a decent delay on that teleport time, there's plenty of time for them to react. He can't be killed because then you take away Ragnaros's ability to teleport and then he's a sitting duck for as long as that refresh lasts. Maybe he should be targetable, able to be stunned to disable Rag for a bit. Or maybe Exectus's range should be limited, so Ragnaros can only reposition so far. But what you have at present is adding complexity onto an already complicated character and a bunch of conditional bonuses he doesn't really need. Intricate is not interesting, it's self-involved. Kill some darlings and think about what can be taken away to make this work instead of retreating to the defense that it's all a mental exercise.

The second change, though, is more important. Because it means that enemies have time to react when Ragnaros appears (just like they have time to scurry away before he does show up). Sure, he can sit back at his towers and clear waves and build up his range until he hits some maximum that reaches his enemy's line of defenses. Starting with pitiful sparks and growing until he's a raging inferno of damage. But how many waves does that take? How long before his opponents rotate down and force him to back off? A Ragnaros with growing power is a threat to deal with but a manageable one. Different from but effectively no better or worse than an Azmodan summoning his demons and shelling away with his dunk while he sits back safe out of canon range. It makes him a specialist who can tear down lanes, but one that's only slightly more crazy than what's already in game. While a Ragnaros who can inch forward from his base and project power halfway across the map is, as you've said, basically unworkable. Either enemies find him and take him out, no matter how tanky he is (And I don't think he should be tanky at all, in that case. Look at how vulnerable Abathur is when he's caught out. If he could soak a lane and then shrug off damage before slipping away, there's very little the opponent can do about it) or he's too protected in which case he wrecks their game. He's either a non-factor or too decisive, too swingy, with very little in between.

Finally, Ragnaros needs to be able to fight heroes. Otherwise he's a Gazlowe who takes Robo-Goblin and does nothing but take merc camps the entire game. You need Grav-o-Bomb somewhere. You need your character to participate in the team brawl. If a character can't fight, then his team is at always going to be at a disadvantage unless his pushing is making up for that with a significant level gap. But if he's pushing that hard, that quickly, then he's unfair and needs to be toned down because he can ignore the rest of the game and march right to the enemy core.

I'd like to reiterate before anything that these Heroes are meant to explore different variations on a theme. I mention this only because several of the ideas you've suggested have been used by other of the heroes in the set; the aim is definitely to provoke the kind of suggestions you are describing, so it's appreciated, but much of the flexibility in hero design of my heroes are sacrificed for variation between them.

No offense, but I do not see the difference between the Ragnaros skills you've suggested and the ones in my current design. Skill 1 sounds exactly like Lava Wave with the World in Flames talent, skill 2 sounds like magma blast but with a stun (which I actively avoided because his ranged damage is an incredibly strong utility on it's own) and skill 3 is literally Hand of Ragnaros but with a slow.

Giving Majordomo invulnerabiliy is just asking for trouble as well, the slow might sound good at first but in reality he would probably just be used as an incredibly safe escape ability; you're dangling a carrot to lure someone away from a gold brick. Too much movement and Ragnaros can just sit in range of towers and constantly beat them down, then simply retreat to a safe distance with an unkillable majordomo when he senses danger and start again when the enemy gives up, while throwing yet more damage in the lane anyway; too much mobility will make Ragnaros unbalancable.

With respect, you have mentioned how basic gameplay balance has to be taken into consideration, but you're idea does not take into consideration how range can be exploited ingame. This is the fundamental aspect I have balanced all the ideas around; incredible range has to be balanced with some sort of vulnerability at least. Ragnaros in particular was created in order to be a specialist, his range uses it's safe tower damage utility that in the other heroes I have limited as much as possible. You're focusing far too much on how he will fight heroes, whereas his pure range and aoe effects will provide all the damage necessary to contribute to any fights, and that's not his intended function. The ability to move too much makes it far too exploitable, and Ragnaros will just continue to push a lane safely, from incredible range, with incredible speed and basically be unstoppable in the process.
In order to balance this, I've given him the ability to move basically every 15 seconds; his range is large enough to be useful essentially anywhere he sits, as long as it's on the correct half of the map, and his tankiness and damage potential keeps him from being targeted and beaten down too quickly. Majordomo in his current state gets Rag to team fights around the same time as Sgt. Hammer, or perhaps even faster considering Domo can be on the opposite side of the map from Rag at any given time.

I appreciate you're ideas and feedback, and I hope to inspire other people to do the same thing, but I think a lot more consideration has to be put into how the strengths of these heroes will be exploited. However, in saying that, theres not enough speculation and brainstorming in the world that will let us know how the mechanics will actual work ingame



I agree, you have to balance the fun aspect with heroes similar to Abathur. Al'akir was my first concept for these stationary heroes and still I think by far my favourite. I already believe heroes need more active skills, similar to what Brightwing had pre-change, but with more hero specific talents than generic ones. This is what I balanced Al'akir around; the fun comes from large amounts of active abilities in teamfights, and lots of skillshots, specifically healing skillshots which haven't made an appearance in game at all.
If you look at the likes of Malfurion, he already stays waaay back in teamfights given that he has access to Elunes grace, and most supports will always have the least amount of deaths in the game so the stretch between them and a longer ranged hero in regards to safety is not actually that far. Furthermore, designing a hero around being in the back line but vulnerable is a very dynamic concept - Al'akir specifically was made to be extremely vulnerable if he's found, and therefore making the counterplay extremely obvious, and actually far more existent than most supports in the game right now.

It's always nice to have your hard work validated, isn't it? And there's definitely a lot of nice work and interesting ideas here.



That reminds me of a concept I've been toying with for Ysera. One where she'd root herself and then go off manifesting as an ethereal presence elsewhere, acting as a healer of sorts while her physical form remains vulnerable. Kind of like a support focused Abathur, who's been my main inspiration. My main problem with that, though, and what keeps me from moving forward is the worry that it might not be fun to play. Ysera's wispy halo shows up, throws down heals, and there's nothing for which the enemy can do because she's not really there so there's no counterplay (Besides, you know, kill faster or hunt her sleeping body down). No engagement in that back and forth struggle that a match contains. She sidesteps all that and alters the normal calculation of risk and reward. A stationary hero doesn't have to worry about that because they have that big body there. But I think they face a similar challenge because of how they're warping the normal way heroes have of interacting with one another. That changes the fundamental dynamics of the game in ways that might not be healthy. Still, there's something undeniably fun about the idea of playing as a huge but limited powerhouse, in some way.



See, I would have gone the other way. Made the Executor the Ragnaros rocket, fired off to reposition around. Mobility is Ragnaros's chief limitation and how he gets around that is key.

I mention Hammer because if you look at her kit, there's a lot of support there for fighting against her supposed strength. Which is seiging up and hammering away. She doesn't have a damage staple, no big nuke (outside of her Heroics), but she gets buttons to push attackers away and another that lays mines that punish them for coming close and her mount-replacement is all about being able to escape when you're otherwise a sitting duck. All that design working there to compensate for what happens when you have a hero that doesn't move (Imagine the counterfactual where there's a Sgt. Hammer as studded with brutal attack skills as a Jaina. All that happens is she sieges up and someone strolls up and smashes her to a pulp before she gets much of her rotation off.). All so she can siege up and pound away with her auto-attack. It shows not just how a character's design can flow elegantly from such a fundamental change but also that even with a big, gamechanging idea, you have to take basic gameplay balance into consideration. Because that's what defines the environment in which your oddball will be operating.

I think Ragnaros could be viable if, like Hammer, he was working against his limitations as much as he was with them. It's hard not to see a Ragnaros that isn't slinging spells, but if the idea is that he's rooted in one place, difficult to dislodge, then make sticking around an asset for him.

I don't want to step on your toes or anything, but I'd make a Ragnaros something like this...

Trait: Ragnaros cannot move or attack as normal. As he uses his abilities to attack, they gain ability power (or bonus damage) and additional range.

Skill 1: A ranged skill shot, sending out a wave of fire that scythes through all enemies it hits dealing damage and setting them on fire so they take additional damage over time.

Skill 2: A ground targeted skill shot, sending waves of flaming rocks tumbling down on a location, damaging and stunning any enemies there.

Skill 3: An area of effect burst, unleashing a wave of molten magma around Ragnaros that pushes enemies back and slows them.

Mount: Ragnaros does not use a mount. Instead, you gain control of Majordomo Executus, directing him with right clicks. The Majordomo moves at 130% of normal movement speed and is invulnerable and untargetable. He deals no damage but will slow those you direct him to attack. You may activate this skill (Z) to move Ragnaros to the Majordomo's current location. After a brief delay, Ragnaros will erupt from the ground there, dealing damage and stunning any enemies nearby (with a moderate cooldown before it can be done again).

With Heroics being a Sulfuras transformation, opening up a window of brutal new abilities, and a Die Insects massive fireball, something like a Pyroblast you have to aim but that doesn't creep along so slow. Basically what you already have. His skills would be cheap or cost nothing at all, with generous cooldown, so he'd be tossing them around a lot since he couldn't auto-attack (Because there's no way to control it if the Majordomo is tied to the right click). The big change is to the Majordomo and splitting the character into a body that takes and deals damage and a focus that moves you around, creating a character that's more like microing a Lost Viking. And one that's more active but still with a lot of seige potential.

Also, I'd note that Ragnaros's initial range would be limited so it takes him time to grow until he's firing over the horizon threat like an Azmodan's dunking. That, though, is what makes him a threat that, like Hammer, you don't want to sit there unmolested for too long. And it's also creating the incentive for the other team to interract him, to get in his face and do something before it's too late. You don't want this Ragnaros to pop up in the middle of a Sky Temple or at an Immortal, but there's something you can do about it if he does.

This version has the virtues of being streamlined. I'm as guilty as anyone of creating so many ideas that a character becomes a bloated, complicated mess. But simpler is more elegant. Here, Ragnaros is the sniper and Executus is the spotter and players can try to score bullseyes with their big, bad fireballs. At the same time it offers a flexible Ragnaros who can zip around and contribue to the battles raging around him. Doing so means givng up on the advantages he gains by being still, but that's like the tensions with Hammer that lead to interesting gameplay. And it's a version that actually has an easier time staying stationary because it gives him tools to cope with its downside. Tools that don't break the rules and let Ragnaros walk around but that give him ways to compensate for not doing so.


This version has the virtues of being streamlined. I'm as guilty as anyone of creating so many ideas that a character becomes a bloated, complicated mess. But simpler is more elegant. Here, Ragnaros is the sniper and Executus is the spotter and players can try to score bullseyes with their big, bad fireballs. At the same time it offers a flexible Ragnaros who can zip around and contribue to the battles raging around him. Doing so means givng up on the advantages he gains by being still, but that's like the tensions with Hammer that lead to interesting gameplay. And it's a version that actually has an easier time staying stationary because it gives him tools to cope with its downside. Tools that don't break the rules and let Ragnaros walk around but that give him ways to compensate for not doing so.

Thanks for you're feedback, I'm really glad someone took their time to think about this.

I made Executus thinking he would function like a single viking control-wise, he has the standard movement of a normal hero and is just a controllable permanent summon. My thinking is that ingame he would be sent to sit behind a tower closer to where the Rag player thinks he'll likely move next, closer to the objective say, or another lane to push, and Rag's range should allow Executus to get into position without too much danger, unless of course the enemy is looking for him. The long wind up for his actual teleportation is to keep him somewhat vulnerable, otherwise using Executus as an escape ability is too strong, and Rag becomes both tanky and globally agile. Executus should also be squishy enough to be able to be sniped in the same vein as Abathur.
I had toyed around with Executus' speed and a time limit, but ended up deciding that that would just cause frustration for the most part.

I definitely did keep Sgt. Hammer in mind throughout this entire process. With respect to Ragnaros, Rag does not have even remotely the same access to the amount of dps as Hammer does, his autoattacks are avoidable and slow and his main damage comes from telegraphed aoes, which I imagine to dish out a lot of damage due to their numerousness, but ultimately be avoidable and unable to focus down a single target. In particular magma blast should function like Tyrande's stun.

I have thought about the counterplay, I mentioned in the notes that I think Rag just isn't feasible because his range and abilities make him too good at denying objectives. However disregarding that, if your team fights around rag as an objective first, many heroes can poke him away even through his entire team, things like Novas nuke, both Hammers ult's, Falstads hammer, Kaels empowered flamestrike, Nazeebo spiders and many more are undodgable for Rag, and unlike hammer, he can't move away and re-engage easily, so once he's pushed out of the way, thats that for his objective denial for the next 30 seconds or so, and Rags team is now 4v5 for the same period of time. In order to defend Rag, the friendly team also has to remain in a specific place, which Jaina and Kael love to take advantage of.
Keep in mind that the actual range is what defines the characters, their specific placement on the map shouldn't matter as much as others because they are covering a lot of ground wherever they are. So being in position for a teamfight say, can be much easier than it sounds.

I think I have come to the conclusion that really the best (or perhaps only) playstyle this fits into is that of a support character. Since already many supports remain way in the backline for the entire teamfight, they are not balanced around high damage so free damage on structures is less of an issue, and they can be very squishy, lends itself well to balancing this kind of character. Regardless I agree, it would be very hard to balance these kind of characters, but ultimately it's mostly unexplored territory so we can't possibly wave off this kind of character without thinking about it or even trying it out first.

I'm still going to try making an assassin, regardless of the fact I am already convinced it will also be unviable for the same reasons as Rag, I'd still like to do it for science.

A stationary hero is....actually, that's a very intriguing idea. But one that, as you say, is going to be really hard to balance. More than the variance between maps, I'd worry about HOTS being a game that's all about flow and movement. Battles cropping up, heroes jumping in and out of lane as objectives come up, and roaming happening everywhere. A big, stationary character isn't a target. It's something to avoid. If they can't warp around quickly enough, they're going to be always showing up late for a fight. Too late to be of any difference, no matter how scary they are.

Which is why I'm curious about how the Executus would function here (Al'Akir gets a delayed warp while Therazane slowly creeps towards her helper I'm not sure how rapidly Ragnaros moves). Do you see him as having an increased movement rate or the base speed of a normal hero? Is he like a slithering missile you aim where you want to be next or is he just going to go plodding along while he gets focused down? Because, yeah, if he's just strolling along then he becomes the high priority target you can use to put Ragnaros down in a hurry. Something like Falstad's launch, let alone Abathur's burrow, would be too strong. There's a sweat spot there, though, where a swift Executus lets Ragnaros be relevant by coping with otherwise being unable to move.

That lack of mobility, though, combined with the easiness with which they can camp out at objectives and other places where fighting is sure to break out, eventually, stationary heroes would seem to feature the worst aspects of a Sgt Hammer without the obvious counterplay (of, you know, being able to smash that stationary siege engine into bits by hitting it fast and hard enough).

Sgt. Hammer actually might be a good hero to look at because she comes the closest to doing what you seem to be after. The difference being that she's actually pretty squishy and has to balance the risks of going stationary while you're building massively well-defended towers of power who have to tank the damage they can't avoid. The other comparison is Chen and just how much it takes him out of things to have to sit and drink for even a little while. It's really hard to have a character be stationary in a game this free-flowing.

I don't see it working. Thought-provoking, though.